Vamp Or AP - Page 5 - Guild Wars Forums

JR · Sep 14, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

1. Conventional wisdom: Vampiric is "constant" damage, while Sundering is garbage.

Corrected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

The data in my post show both types of damage as having wildly variable results. Also both types show occasional high-value hits that you could refer to as "spikes" (although I made no statements about spiking). So basically, neither type is "constant", and both types "spike".

Er... Logic says hi, and wonders why you haven't called recently.

The the "occasional high damage hits" with a Vamp have nothing to do with the vamp, it is the weapon landing a Crit. The same goes for Sundering, except you will also get slightly higher damage when Sundering triggers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

2. Conventional wisdom: Vampiric is better than Sundering over time. - In my tests, the time - as in the number of hits x the hits per second - was essentially the same for both types. Neither one gave any indication of being better over time, they each took the same number of hits to kill the target. If it takes a longer time to show the difference than it does to kill the target, the difference is meaningless.

Not really, it's called being thorough in your testing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

3. Conventional wisdom: Sundering is worse versus stronger armor. Using the calculations, that some people do, leads to the "conventional wisdom" that sundering is more effective against "softer" targets and the effectiveness of Sundering goes down as the armor level goes up. However, in direct contradiction of this, all the tests I've done, in addition to the ones I posted, show Sundering to be more effective against "harder" targets.

Logic just downed a bottle of vodka and jumped out of a fourth floor window.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for Sundering to be better against higher ALs than Vampiric. The damage bonus of Sundering IS MITIGATED BY ARMOR, the damage bonus from Vampiric is NOT. Therefore as armor scales up Sundering will get worse, whilst Vampiric stays constant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

I am willing to accept that more tests would be better, but, in all this discussion, I have yet to see anyone else post the results of their own tests. I have yet to see anyone explain why my test data does or does not support their case.

Mostly because this information has been repeatedly and tested by respected members of the community, and it is quite honestly mind boggling that someone could come in and throw some arbitrary numbers around stating that Sundering is suddenly decent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Why are the values I get all over the map instead of "constant" for Vampiric and "spikey" for Sunder? (Could it be that the chance/probabilty factors are not taken into account in the "formulas" and, therefore, the formulas are inaccurate?)

Critical hits...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Why doesn't Vampiric show up as clearly superior to Sundering, if it so truly is?

Your testing is flawed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

And, as I keep saying - try it yourself!

Dozens have, as this argument has been brought up thousands of times since release.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

By the way, I'm not trying to convince any of the pro-vamp die-hards about this. They seem to have an almost religious zeal for this subject, and I think if the programmers for ANet said differently, they'd argue with them too.

It is a religious zeal to keep misinformation and trash off this forum.

Malice Black · Sep 15, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45

LOL..quality JR absolute quality

Spike · Sep 15, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

If the Warrior's Might blessing from avatars of Balthazar stack with the other skills you mentioned savio it would in fact be possable to get to 70% AP.

Savio · Sep 15, 2006, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Actually, now that I glance over Quaker's data, it's inconsistent at several points.

1. There is no way that sundering triggered on all of your critical hits for bow sundering #1. From your numbers it looks like you used Judge's Insight or Primal Rage for the first test. (Or else you had an almost unbroken run of sundering triggering.)

2. Vampiric life steal would not be multiplied by a +15% damage modifier, so your first set of vamp bow numbers are wrong.

3. You don't list what attributes you use for the sword tests, it's 16 swords from what I can see. I don't see how you could've gotten a 64 in sword 60 AL vamp #2 unless again you were running JI or Primal Rage. (Or somehow a weapon with both sundering and vampiric.)

I honestly don't know where the hell you pulled the "conventional wisdom" from, except your own flawed assumptions.

Sundering for spiking? I already stated it twice, it's not.
Wildly variable results? It's called a damage range, those numbers listed underneath the weapon name. Unless you're using a CC weapon, damages will vary.
Spikes? Critical hits. READ.
Not testing over time? How can you make any statement regarding what does more damage over time if you refuse to test damage over time? In any case, a lot of enemies do something called healing, which essentially means they don't flop over when you do 480 damage to them.

Until you read up more about the game, or at least go back and test with more hits and less "I'm pulling 20% AP out of nowhere," nobody's going to take you seriously.

Spike:
No, it wouldn't. Read Armor penetration to see how it stacks. Basically, if the number doesn't have a + in front of it, it won't stack with other numbers that don't have a + in front of them. So if you have 16 Strength, Primal Rage, and Warrior's Might, the game will only use the highest number, in this case Primal Rage. Sundering and Judge's Insight will add onto whatever AP you have.

unienaule · Sep 15, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Doesn't vamp show up as it's own -5 damage?

Nanood · Sep 15, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Vamp FTW !

lennymon · Sep 15, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

ooh ooh! Im a zealot!

Savio · Sep 15, 2006, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Wouldn't zealots use zealous instead?

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

Doesn't vamp show up as it's own -5 damage?

It shows up as its own -5, but it's not damage.

lennymon · Sep 15, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

I do prefer zealous as a matter of fact

unless im spiking... then its vamp
I personally think this has run its course, there is in FACT no 'best' mod there are 'best for x' mods though, in theory heehee
most damage/time with physical award goes to: vamp
most expensive and therefore it must be good award: sundering (ok its sexy on a ctrl-click in a party of 'wammos' too)
most useful for longevity and staying power for anyone but a pure adrenaline warrior: zealous
and since Im a ranger: best utility goes to: crippling string

Spike · Sep 15, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Ah yes Warrior's Might blessing does say it gives you a BASE 10% AP not a BOUNS 10% AP. Oh well. BTW that link you gave savio in another thread to that page all about the combat stats and how damage is worked out was most intresting thanks for that. My Vote for best overall mod would have to goto Elemental ones and probley a fire one at that.

beta man · Sep 16, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

i prefer sundering/elemental switching combo mod to vamp mod because i dont see much difference in the dmg output and secondly due to experience playing as a monk, i hate warriors with vamp mod because during a pvp battle, a warrior cannot be constantly hitting something, they are almost always blinded by some spells or signet hence cannot hit anything and over time degen counts. Hey its common that in a pvp match the warrior was blinded, slowed down or being kited throughout the whole match that they are not hitting anything but due to degen, u are helping the enemies.

now me the monk have to toss a 5 energy healing spell just to cover the warrior degen, and 5 energy is ALOT when u are in the heat of a battle. well if i dont heal him when he degens to 75% health, he became a easier target and could be spiked. And now, imagine a 8man team with 2-3 warriors with vamp mod is this advisable?? Do u monk like it? And do u actually see any matches where all their meelee class uses a vamp mod?

dont tell me stuff like a warrior should switch weapon IF HE IS BLINDED/SLOWED DOWN/KITED , now this is bs,lol. switch weapon when not fighting is easy, switch weapon when a warrior got blinded/slowed down/kited? that is not good advise anyway. there are more important things like positioning and such to worry about then wasting ur brain power energy to worry about the vamp degen.

PVE wise, why even use vamp mod or sundering mod? anything goes. u would prolly complete a mission/quest with a difference of like a few seconds anyway if either one is indeed better.

PS: so my conclusion is don't use vamp mod not beneficial or even productive

Zui · Sep 16, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

To everyone saying there isn't much difference...

Too lazy to link to the post at team iq: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3066860

Now, can we close this thread before more people like Beta Man, Spike, and Quaker come in and start posting more misinformation? Please? It has pained me to read some of the posts on this thread...

Dante the Warlord · Sep 16, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Please ive been fighting about this for so long...SUNDEING VS. VAMPIRIC... PERSONAL PREFERENCE!!!!!! thats all... if ur lazy and rich, get sundering...into the game and on the edge and a risk taker use vampiric

Zui · Sep 16, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

Please ive been fighting about this for so long...SUNDEING VS. VAMPIRIC... PERSONAL PREFERENCE!!!!!! thats all... if ur lazy and rich, get sundering...into the game and on the edge and a risk taker use vampiric

Sundering is crap. End of story. Unless you can prove to us that they're equal... Which is impossible...

Oh, and there's no 'risk' involved with Vampiric unless you're absolutly retarded.

beta man · Sep 16, 2006, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

To everyone saying there isn't much difference...

Too lazy to link to the post at team iq: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3066860

Now, can we close this thread before more people like Beta Man, Spike, and Quaker come in and start posting more misinformation? Please? It has pained me to read some of the posts on this thread...

i m not saying vamp cant dish out more dmg, i m just saying it does not benefit the team as a whole. so i m suggesting a sundering/elemental mod and not a vamp. which player in the game actually stands there and let u happily hack away?
ok, put it in ur way, vamp is good, can do more dmg, true, that is when u are hitting those practice target in battle isle i cant argue that.

but, like i said, when u are blinded, slowed down, kited most of the time as a warrior, i don't see anything good with that "uber leet" +3 constant dmg when you cant hit anything and degen-ing ur health to help the enemies and waste your monk energy to heal u. let me repeat again that 5 energy is A LOT to waste when you are in the heat of the battle and vamp -1 degen ADDS UP over time.

i m merely giving my point of view as i monk a lot. vamp doesn't help your team overall, its a burden.
vamp "+3 uber leet armour ignoring dmg", looks good on theory with those zero point something percent blah blah, but impractical at all.

please read my post carefully.

dgb · Sep 16, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by beta man

i m not saying vamp cant dish out more dmg, i m just saying it does not benefit the team as a whole. so i m suggesting a sundering/elemental mod and not a vamp. which player in the game actually stands there and let u happily hack away?
ok, put it in ur way, vamp is good, can do more dmg, true, that when u are hitting those practice target in battle isle i cant argue that.

but, like i said, when u are blinded, slowed down, kited most of the time as a warrior, i don't see anything good with that "uber leet" +3 constant dmg when you cant hit anything and degen ur health to help the enemies and waste your monk energy to heal u.

i m merely giving my point of view as i monk a lot. vamp doesn't help your team overall, its a burden.

please read my post carefully.

I daresay I monk more than you. I've spent close to 1600 hours on a monk. I get pissed off when I see a warrior with sundering, it means that they don't have a clue how to do their job and are scrubs. Seriously, if you think 1pip of degen adds anything to your energy burden you're clueless. It gets cleaned up with heal parties, heal sigs etc.

beta man · Sep 16, 2006, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

I daresay I monk more than you. I've spent close to 1600 hours on a monk. I get pissed off when I see a warrior with sundering, it means that they don't have a clue how to do their job and are scrubs. Seriously, if you think 1pip of degen adds anything to your energy burden you're clueless. It gets cleaned up with heal parties, heal sigs etc.

lol, using a high energy cost heal party as a monk to "clean up" -1 pip degen on a warrior with vamp mod and its no problem? i nearly fell off my chair reading that. allright i gave up, i m staying out of this. don't bother to reply to my msg, will not be coming back to this thread as i have said my opinions for the readers. don't want to get too personal and would rather focus more on the issue.

stop making urself look silly

peace out.

Zui · Sep 16, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

I daresay I monk more than you. I've spent close to 1600 hours on a monk. I get pissed off when I see a warrior with sundering, it means that they don't have a clue how to do their job and are scrubs. Seriously, if you think 1pip of degen adds anything to your energy burden you're clueless. It gets cleaned up with heal parties, heal sigs etc.

Having logged over 2000 Hours on my Monk in PvP, that's very much QFT.

If Healing Signet or Heal Party can't take care of ~50 life lost per minute, there's somthing very, very wrong...

Zui · Sep 16, 2006, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by beta man

lol, using a high energy cost heal party as a monk to "clean up" -1 pip degen on a warrior with vamp mod and its no problem? i nearly fell off my chair reading that. allright i gave up, i m staying out of this. don't bother to reply to my msg, will not be coming back to this thread as i have said my opinions for the readers. don't want to get too personal and would rather focus more on the issue.

stop making urself look silly

peace out.

You don't use Heal Party just to clean up the Warrior. But, when there are multiple allies that all happen to have a some amount of damage they've incured incidentaly, such as from degen, it's really not uncommon for an E/Mo to fire off a Heal Party, or two.

Then again, you're so clueless you assumed it was a Monk using Heal Party... Ether Prodigy Powered E/Mo anyone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by beta man

stop making urself look silly

Take your own adice and stop posting when you have absolutly no clue what you're talking about.

beta man · Sep 16, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

You don't use Heal Party just to clean up the Warrior. But, when there are multiple allies that all happen to have a some amount of damage they've incured incidentaly, such as from degen, it's really not uncommon for an E/Mo to fire off a Heal Party, or two.

Then again, you're so clueless you assumed it was a Monk using Heal Party... Ether Prodigy Powered E/Mo anyone?

Take your own adice and stop posting when you have absolutly no clue what you're talking about.

allright u replied fast, i will drop off one last one. it is not uncommon for a E/mo to fire off heal party and that prenerf ether prodigy ele blah blah yeah its common. now we are not talking about multiple allies taking dmg, we are talking about uneeded degen of the warrior vamp mod that leads to A MONK to heal him in a heat of the battle over time as it adds up. ever a time when u need to heal a warrior then suddenly u got esurged and energy burned? i have no idea why energy is no issue, to me, its a big one and 5 energy can mean saving a toon's life to carry on with the battle, its unwise to waste on a blinded/slowed/kited warrior that can't hit anything to justified his vamp mod to the fullest.

Take your own advice as well and stop posting when you have absolutely no clue what you're reading about. what have it got to do with a E/mo now? we are talking about degen and monk wasting energy here in the heat of a battle. u might as well throw in some other built and bring this issue way out of its point.

allright, i m sorry if my opinion or words offended anyone.

edit: remove "extingish" as it is personal preference ele built, have nothing to do with this issue

Sep 15, 2006, 01:30 AM // 01:30	#84
Savio Teenager with attitude Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]	Actually, now that I glance over Quaker's data, it's inconsistent at several points. 1. There is no way that sundering triggered on all of your critical hits for bow sundering #1. From your numbers it looks like you used Judge's Insight or Primal Rage for the first test. (Or else you had an almost unbroken run of sundering triggering.) 2. Vampiric life steal would not be multiplied by a +15% damage modifier, so your first set of vamp bow numbers are wrong. 3. You don't list what attributes you use for the sword tests, it's 16 swords from what I can see. I don't see how you could've gotten a 64 in sword 60 AL vamp #2 unless again you were running JI or Primal Rage. (Or somehow a weapon with both sundering and vampiric.) I honestly don't know where the hell you pulled the "conventional wisdom" from, except your own flawed assumptions. Sundering for spiking? I already stated it twice, it's not. Wildly variable results? It's called a damage range, those numbers listed underneath the weapon name. Unless you're using a CC weapon, damages will vary. Spikes? Critical hits. READ. Not testing over time? How can you make any statement regarding what does more damage over time if you refuse to test damage over time? In any case, a lot of enemies do something called healing, which essentially means they don't flop over when you do 480 damage to them. Until you read up more about the game, or at least go back and test with more hits and less "I'm pulling 20% AP out of nowhere," nobody's going to take you seriously. Spike: No, it wouldn't. Read Armor penetration to see how it stacks. Basically, if the number doesn't have a + in front of it, it won't stack with other numbers that don't have a + in front of them. So if you have 16 Strength, Primal Rage, and Warrior's Might, the game will only use the highest number, in this case Primal Rage. Sundering and Judge's Insight will add onto whatever AP you have. __________________ People are stupid.

Sep 15, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49	#90
Spike Jungle Guide Join Date: May 2005 Location: In front of my PC Guild: Kai Profession: E/Mo	Ah yes Warrior's Might blessing does say it gives you a BASE 10% AP not a BOUNS 10% AP. Oh well. BTW that link you gave savio in another thread to that page all about the combat stats and how damage is worked out was most intresting thanks for that. My Vote for best overall mod would have to goto Elemental ones and probley a fire one at that. Last edited by Spike; Sep 15, 2006 at 11:51 PM // 23:51..

Sep 16, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08	#91
beta man Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Sep 2006 Profession: R/E	i prefer sundering/elemental switching combo mod to vamp mod because i dont see much difference in the dmg output and secondly due to experience playing as a monk, i hate warriors with vamp mod because during a pvp battle, a warrior cannot be constantly hitting something, they are almost always blinded by some spells or signet hence cannot hit anything and over time degen counts. Hey its common that in a pvp match the warrior was blinded, slowed down or being kited throughout the whole match that they are not hitting anything but due to degen, u are helping the enemies. now me the monk have to toss a 5 energy healing spell just to cover the warrior degen, and 5 energy is ALOT when u are in the heat of a battle. well if i dont heal him when he degens to 75% health, he became a easier target and could be spiked. And now, imagine a 8man team with 2-3 warriors with vamp mod is this advisable?? Do u monk like it? And do u actually see any matches where all their meelee class uses a vamp mod? dont tell me stuff like a warrior should switch weapon IF HE IS BLINDED/SLOWED DOWN/KITED , now this is bs,lol. switch weapon when not fighting is easy, switch weapon when a warrior got blinded/slowed down/kited? that is not good advise anyway. there are more important things like positioning and such to worry about then wasting ur brain power energy to worry about the vamp degen. PVE wise, why even use vamp mod or sundering mod? anything goes. u would prolly complete a mission/quest with a difference of like a few seconds anyway if either one is indeed better. PS: so my conclusion is don't use vamp mod not beneficial or even productive Last edited by beta man; Sep 16, 2006 at 12:16 AM // 00:16..

Sep 15, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45	#82
Malice Black Site Legend Join Date: Oct 2005	LOL..quality JR absolute quality

Sep 15, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55	#83
Spike Jungle Guide Join Date: May 2005 Location: In front of my PC Guild: Kai Profession: E/Mo	If the Warrior's Might blessing from avatars of Balthazar stack with the other skills you mentioned savio it would in fact be possable to get to 70% AP.

Sep 15, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49	#85
unienaule I dunt even get "Retired" Join Date: Aug 2005 Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]	Doesn't vamp show up as it's own -5 damage?

Sep 15, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55	#86
Nanood Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Supermans Crystal Palace Guild: Legion Of The Dark Sun	Vamp FTW !

Sep 15, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36	#87
lennymon Forge Runner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle Guild: Odin's Hammer [OH] - Servant's of Fortuna [SoF] Profession: R/	ooh ooh! Im a zealot!

Sep 15, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48	#89
lennymon Forge Runner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle Guild: Odin's Hammer [OH] - Servant's of Fortuna [SoF] Profession: R/	I do prefer zealous as a matter of fact unless im spiking... then its vamp I personally think this has run its course, there is in FACT no 'best' mod there are 'best for x' mods though, in theory heehee most damage/time with physical award goes to: vamp most expensive and therefore it must be good award: sundering (ok its sexy on a ctrl-click in a party of 'wammos' too) most useful for longevity and staying power for anyone but a pure adrenaline warrior: zealous and since Im a ranger: best utility goes to: crippling string

Sep 16, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15	#92
Zui Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2006 Guild: The Benecia Renovatio [RenO] Profession: Mo/	To everyone saying there isn't much difference... Too lazy to link to the post at team iq: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3066860 Now, can we close this thread before more people like Beta Man, Spike, and Quaker come in and start posting more misinformation? Please? It has pained me to read some of the posts on this thread...

Sep 16, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53	#93
Dante the Warlord Desert Nomad Join Date: Jul 2006 Profession: W/R	Please ive been fighting about this for so long...SUNDEING VS. VAMPIRIC... PERSONAL PREFERENCE!!!!!! thats all... if ur lazy and rich, get sundering...into the game and on the edge and a risk taker use vampiric